Passions run big on gun show loophole

[imported_elp6n]

http://www.roanoke.com/wb/xp-index

RICHMOND -- In an overcrowded hearing room and on the grounds of the state Capitol, parents and friends of Virginia Tech shooting victims made passionate appeals Monday for legislation requiring background checks for all firearms purchases made at gun shows.

Gun rights advocates were equally adamant, urging lawmakers to reject new firearms regulations and instead give eligible college students and faculty the ability to carry concealed weapons on state campuses.

The philosophical clash reached its crescendo during an afternoon rally just below the Capitol, where gun control supporters chanted, "Now, now, now!" and opponents tried to shout them down with cries of "Never, never, never!"

The competing demonstrations occurred as a committee considered Senate Bill 109, which would close the so-called "gun show loophole" and require private sellers to conduct the same criminal background checks on buyers that licensed dealers must perform. Gov. Tim Kaine is pushing for the legislation, and parents of some Tech shooting victims are joining the effort.

But Kaine faces a tough battle winning support for the measure, sponsored by Sen. Henry Marsh, D-Richmond. A House of Delegates committee rejected similar legislation Friday. And three Democrats on the Senate Courts of Justice committee have voiced concerns with a Senate bill promoted by Kaine, raising doubts about whether the governor has enough support in his own party to get the bill passed.

"I'm sympathetic to the issues, but it's unlikely the way it's drafted that it will be passed into law," said Sen. John Edwards, D-Roanoke, whose district includes Virginia Tech. He has voted against previous bills to expand background checks at gun shows.

Sen. Roscoe Reynolds, D-Henry County, said "there is no evidence that a gun show played any part in the tragedy at Tech."

Reynolds said some fear the bill aims "to put gun shows out of business," including large gun shows that occur in Hillsville, in his district.

Sen. Creigh Deeds, D-Bath County, who has opposed similar bills in the past, said Monday that he is carefully weighing arguments on both sides of the issue.

The Senate panel held a 90-minute hearing on the bill Monday in front of an overflow crowd that filled a hearing room and spilled into a lobby area of the General Assembly office building. The committee will vote on the bill Wednesday.

Seung-Hui Cho, a mentally ill Tech student, killed 32 people and himself on the Blacksburg campus April 16 with guns he purchased from licensed firearms dealers. Information about an involuntary treatment order from a Montgomery County special justice was never entered into a federal database used to conduct the instant records checks. Kaine has since issued an executive order to close that loophole.

Kaine, as well as current and former Virginia State Police officials, argue that Cho still could have avoided a background check by seeking out an unlicensed seller at a gun show.

Peter Read of Annandale, father of slain Tech student Mary Karen Read, told the committee that the gun issue is more difficult than the mental health reforms lawmakers also are pursuing in response to the shootings.

"It requires profiles in courage from every single one of you, and I will not back off on that," he said.

Supporters, including a group of Tech students and Blacksburg residents who traveled to the Capitol by bus, wore yellow stickers that read "Close the Gun Show Loophole." Opponents, some carrying holstered guns, sported orange stickers that read "Guns Save Lives."

Large crowds on both sides of the debate later gathered on the Capitol grounds, where more than 100 demonstrators lay on the ground in a silent tribute to victims of gun violence. Gun rights advocates formed a semicircle around the demonstrators and defiantly turned their backs on them while holding aloft signs bearing slogans such as "Here Lies Unarmed Victims" and "Self-Defense Is A Basic Human Right."

At one point, a gun rights advocate told Tech shooting survivor Colin Goddard that Cho may have been stopped if students with concealed carry permits were allowed to carry guns on the Tech campus.

"I would have stopped him," said Jeff Knox, director of operations for the Manassas-based Firearms Coalition. "When I went to school, I carried a gun. It was legal."

Goddard, a senior who was shot four times in Norris Hall, replied: "I feel sorry for you, the fact that you feel you need to protect yourself in every situation."

Goddard said he believes most Tech students support efforts to expand criminal background checks at gun shows and to keep weapons off of campus.

"Most of the people I interact with don't really approach me and say, 'We should have guns on campus,' " Goddard said. "They know the position I've been in and they wouldn't say something like that to me. The school generally has a view that that's not something they want. They want the school to remain a safe campus. If people are exposed to something that kills them, increasing their exposure to that same thing doesn't generally decrease the number of deaths, I don't think."

Ken Stanton, Tech's leader for Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, also was on the Capitol grounds. Stanton, a doctoral candidate, said he merely wants Tech students and faculty to have the same rights as off-campus visitors with concealed-carry permits.

"Those who are there every day don't have the same rights," Stanton said.

The Tech shootings have brought an emotional charge to the long-running debate over the gun show legislation.

"It's impossible not to be affected by the emotion," Deeds said.

During Monday's committee hearing, Suzanne Grimes, mother of shooting survivor Kevin Sterne, held up a front page of The Roanoke Times with a picture of her wounded son being carried from Norris Hall.

"He faced death, witnessed a horrific assault, and will carry the scars forever, physically and emotionally," said Grimes, who lives in Pennsylvania.

Supporters of the bill let out a sarcastic groan when Philip Van Cleave, president of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, complained that a technical glitch with the instant background check held up a recent purchase he made at a gun show.

Senate Majority Leader Richard Saslaw, D-Fairfax County, interrupted Van Cleave and gestured to the family of Reema Samaha, one of the students killed in the shootings.

"How onerous do you think this whole thing's been on that family sitting right there to your left?" Saslaw asked.

[NotSoSilentBob]

The committee leadership should be ashamed of themselves. There is no place for emotion.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">GUN SHOW BILL

I arrived at 8:30 AM for the hearing of SB109, Senator Marsh's "Gun
show loophole" (AKA, the private sales registration) bill in the
Senate Courts of Justice. Testimony on the bill began at 10 AM. The
antis got 35 minutes to speak, as did our side. Only two or three VT
parents spoke, the rest of the speakers were either police (disgracing
the badges on their uniforms) or lobbyists.

The antis brought up their usual baloney and misleading "facts."
Colonel Massengil and the Superintendent of State Police (who was in
uniform) spoke in favor of the gun show bill. Massengil tried to
tout himself as being pro-gun.

When asked by one of the Senators how many criminals got their guns at
a private sale at a gun show, the Superintendent had to admit that he
didn't know.

While the antis spoke, all the gun owners were quiet and did not
disrupt or heckle them.

But, when our turn came to talk, things were different.

Joel Patridge, the NRA lobbyist for Virginia, was heckled and applause
at the heckling drowned him out at one point. He looked at Senator
Marsh, the committee chairman, to bring order. But Marsh, who had
been running the meeting with an iron fist before, just sat there for
a while and then weak-wristedly brought down the gavel and the room
finally came to order.

I spoke after Joel, and it was even worse. Again, as I spoke the
antis heckled and were very unruly, clapping loudly and long at the
heckling. When there was an outburst, I would stop speaking and wait
patiently for Marsh to get around to bringing order. The suddenly
weak-wristed Marsh would eventually get around to bringing order.

When I started pointing out that the bill would be onerous on dealers,
gun shows, and private sellers, Democrat Senator Saslaw shamelessly
playing to the hecklers, ask me if the VT parents had been
inconvenienced. ( More on Senator Saslaw other antics in an upcoming
alert.)

Again unruly applause and heckling took over the room as Marsh sat
there impotently.

In the end the committee decided to vote on the bill on Wednesday at
the 2 PM meeting. I will be there for the vote. I am optimistic -
delaying the vote was probably done because Marsh didn't have the
votes to pass his bill. But it isn't over until the fat lady sings.

***If you have NOT contacted your representatives on HB 109, PLEASE DO
SO NOW!***

Our side presented itself well and the antis showed themselves to be
their usual rude and inconsiderate selves.

THE "LIE"-IN

At 12:45, EM Dave Vann was taping signs on member's backs with
messages like, "Freedom is NOT a loophole." The members then headed
over to stand around the antis when their protest started at 1 PM.

We had about 200 people show up at the protest, dwarfing the
approximate 100 antis!

As I approached the protest, I was taken aback by the image of all
those white VCDL signs blanketing the protest, drowning out the antis'
messages.

And the antis got mad. They tried to get us kick out, but the police
told them that their protest was a spectacle, which draws spectators.
He pointed out that we weren't doing anything but standing and
observing, all of which is protected by the First Amendment.

The antis, fuming, walked away from the police officer to pout
somewhere else.

We had one member assalted by an anti who shoved him out of the way,
saying, "This is OUR protest!"

Nice people, aren't they?</div></div>

Massengill is a douche and any police appearing in uniform should be reprimanded.

[neutral88]

Gun LAws are as stupid as any law we have...

Marijuana is illegal...Everyone I have ever known that wanted a joint had no trouble finding it...So why does everyone think guns would be different?

[Monkeyhead]

I am almost speechless on how ignorant some people are. Just like NSSB said,

"The committee leadership should be ashamed of themselves. There is no place for emotion."

[neutral88]

I just wonder if the Anti's actually think that having to register a gun bought at a show would prevent another killing??? I am certain that anyone who wants a gun would have no trouble finding one...

[NotSoSilentBob]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: neutral88</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just wonder if the Anti's actually think that having to register a gun bought at a show would prevent another killing??? I am certain that anyone who wants a gun would have no trouble finding one... </div></div>

Register? There is no registration in VA (other than Class III).

Kaine and his cohorts are using the VPI shootings as a political tool.

Would closing the so-called "gun show loophole" have stopped Cho from getting his guns?

No, he purchased them at a gun shop.

When Kaine took office, he said that would not enact any new gun control legislation. I guess he's showing himself to be like all other politicians. In other words, a big fat liar.

[sup-rbeast]

I know folks go wild over this stuff...but if you've already got a couple rifles, a pistol and a shotgun...what would you need with more? I believe it's a fundamental right and freedom, but folks on both sides throw a fit when this debate starts.

[NotSoSilentBob]

You've already spoken your two cents worth, why would you need more?

The 2nd is just as important as the 1st. Perhaps even more so as it gives citizens a means to freshen the tree of liberty.

[neutral88]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sup-rbeast</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know folks go wild over this stuff...but if you've already got a couple rifles, a pistol and a shotgun...what would you need with more? I believe it's a fundamental right and freedom, but folks on both sides throw a fit when this debate starts. </div></div>

If you say that to a hunter, then it's kinda like tellin a golfer:

"Well man you got a sandwedge, a putter, 3 wood, 3 iron, and an 8 iron....Why would you ever need more clubs????"

[sup-rbeast]

IMO, you don't need an arsenal to go hunting...you don't need an arsenal to defend yourself...Really, I don't care if every citizen has 250 guns, I'm just stating my opinion.